WotC wrote:Now that you've seen the Use the Force skill, you should have a good idea of how it works at its most basic level. None of its uses can radically alter the flow of combat. To do that, a character must be trained in the skill and have access to Force powers. Force-users gain access to a feat called Force Training that gives them a pool of powers to draw upon. Each power represents a single use of the Force that helps make up a character's "suite."
When a character uses a Force power, he removes it from his suite of powers, makes a Use the Force check, and follows the explanation of the effect. That power is now considered spent and can't be used again. Force-users regain their Force powers by resting for one minute outside of combat, activating special talents, spending Force points, and a variety of other means. Additionally, if you roll a natural 20 on your Use the Force check to activate a Force power, you regain all of your spent powers -- the Force is with you!
Am I the only one who smells Tome of Battle here? If yes, what do you folks think about the chances about it being a core capsystem in the eventual fourth edition (and more important, what do you think about thew decision itself)?
I don't really understand that interpretation. The ToB system just seems streamlined and easily managed. I'm not sure how that makes it a card game.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Basically because now you can only use your "turbo" abilities once per episode. It's like chucking that power into the discard pile once you're done with it, and I don't like it.
With the previous edition, they had that vitality point cost put into Force power uses to try and limit Force power abuse, and now they have this recycling mechanic. Both seem like unnecessary limitations, especially now that everybody is supposed to be able to use the Force at least fundimentally. Even with this new mechanic, they're not preventing any abuses, seeing as you can "prepare" multiples of any one power.
Of course, by that interpretation, spellcasters have always been that way. To wit:
-- A spell is a card. Each card can be placed in a spellcaster's brain (his deck) multiple times. Once a spell is played, it goes into the discard pile.
As I said, I don't buy it.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Actually the thing that makes it a card game is the "reshuffle" that occurs in the middle of combat. While you could certainly represent a Wizard with a deck of cards, doing so was extremely impractical because you could potentially fill up your entire spell preparation slot list with ice storm or charm monster if you felt so inclined. Thus, to represent a Wizard with cards, you'd need a binder with many copies of each card or write your stuff out every day. Far easier to just have a series of slashes after each spell you prepare and X them out as the spells are cast.
But with the fvcking Crusader, and now Force Powers, you get all your stuff back at irregular intervals. I don't know when (or if) I'll get my Force Power uses back, so a pen & paper system won't work well - I literally have to use cards.
I don't know about that. With all maneuver-users (except the Crusader ... wonky class) you only need to put a little box next to the name of each maneuver you ready at the beginning of the day. Put a check in it to represent that it's expended; erase the check mark when you recover it. With a Crusader you need to keep track of an extra state, so put a "/" in it to represent and an "X" to represent expended; erase them to represent withheld. Or use some other combination or order of symbols. *shrug* Heck, use a series of three columns and erase the tick mark from column A and write it in column C.
I've been using a spreadsheet for all my character stat stuff for a while now. It works fine for both spells and maneuvers.
Have to use cards? Pshaw. I think you're hyperbolizing a bit.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
I think they're taking a step in the wrong direction here. Basing force power usage off hp was an excellent mechanic. Its possible they didn't give characters sufficient hp for the level of force usage they expected - that's just a number problem. But the advantage to hp-based systems is you can give everyone the same hp and magic-users (sorry, force users) end up having less to actually use to absorb hits.
It also makes taking damage have implications on effectiveness - not having those hp means fewer hp that you can spend on awesome.
The reason I don't like the ToB mechanic is that it leads to things like 'well, I used up my Force Push, I'll use my Force Lightning.' In the Starwars Universe, 'keeping balance in the force' doesn't mean that you should use every power once.
This is why we have 'mana' systems. You get X counters and Y powers, and if you like you can use Force PushX times, or you can use Force LightningX times, or you can use Force PushX - n times and Force Lightningn times.
There's nothing innately wrong with Vancian or Deck systems, one should simply choose the best mechanics for the flavor you desire.
Maybe the Deck system does make the most sense. Characters often rest before using a power twice. However, characters often rest between using any two powers, and characters seem to use the same technique in a combat over and over again just as often as they 'shiffle.' We can say that many of the 'players' in Star Wars were 'Role Play Not Roll Play -ers' who didn't understand conservation of resources, and the the DM (Lucas) was cheating, but I don't think that's a very good model.
Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1176745237[/unixtime]]The reason I don't like the ToB mechanic is that it leads to things like 'well, I used up my Force Push, I'll use my Force Lightning.' In the Starwars Universe, 'keeping balance in the force' doesn't mean that you should use every power once.
Well, there are other recovery methods that are unlisted. They might include something like being able to toss out two Force Powers from the suite to recover one Force Power of your choice. You know, something to dissuade players from spamming one power and encourage variety, but to allow it to happen at a rate of reduced efficiency if such is their choice.
The D&D (Vancian) casting system was indeed based upon cards.
And once upon a time, TSR did sell these cards. And players did build their deck out of them. They'd wrap them in a rubberband and mark down on their character sheet which ones were scrolls, or if there were more than one of them.
The new abilities are even more cardgame like because you don't have multiples of them and you discard them as you consume them - then get a random number back. Totally like a game of poker.
Which is fine, I suppose, but D&D is pen and paper, it's not Dragonstorm.
Crissa, I'm going to have to go to the historical replay tape, but IIRC T$R spell cards didn't come out until way into 2E and may have been a reaction to the new virus infecting the gaming hallways at conventions; all those annoying players and those MtG playing cards.
Clearly AD&D 1E was based on "write it on your sheet."
tzor at [unixtime wrote:1176751609[/unixtime]]Crissa, I'm going to have to go to the historical replay tape, but IIRC T$R spell cards didn't come out until way into 2E and may have been a reaction to the new virus infecting the gaming hallways at conventions; all those annoying players and those MtG playing cards.
...And you'll fail. ;-;
Notebooks, 3x5 cards with spells and magic items on them - these things were released after 2nd edition advanced, definitely.
bitnine at [unixtime wrote:1176745748[/unixtime]] Well, there are other recovery methods that are unlisted. They might include something like being able to toss out two Force Powers from the suite to recover one Force Power of your choice. You know, something to dissuade players from spamming one power and encourage variety, but to allow it to happen at a rate of reduced efficiency if such is their choice.
Yeah, I actually kind of like the idea of reducing the enticement to spam powers.
tzor at [unixtime wrote:1176751609[/unixtime]]Crissa, I'm going to have to go to the historical replay tape, but IIRC T$R spell cards didn't come out until way into 2E and may have been a reaction to the new virus infecting the gaming hallways at conventions; all those annoying players and those MtG playing cards.
...And you'll fail. ;-;
Notebooks, 3x5 cards with spells and magic items on them - these things were released after 2nd edition advanced, definitely.
But about ten years before Magic: the Gathering.
-Crissa
Umm...weren't those spell cards released in 1992 and Magic the gathering started in 1993.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1176773615[/unixtime]]Notebooks, 3x5 cards with spells and magic items on them - these things were released after 2nd edition advanced, definitely.
But about ten years before Magic: the Gathering.
That is clearly impossible. M:tG was released in 1993. ten years before that 1983 IIRC they had just published the Anti-Paladin in Dragon and the edition was late 1st. (2nd Edition doesn't come out until 1989)
Not that I am any more correct, it turns out that the Deck of Priest Spells was published in 1992, one year before M:tG.
(Ah shit I should have kept looking down the thread ... I want that 15 minutes of my life spent researching those dates back dammit.)
Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1176745237[/unixtime]]The reason I don't like the ToB mechanic is that it leads to things like 'well, I used up my Force Push, I'll use my Force Lightning.' In the Starwars Universe, 'keeping balance in the force' doesn't mean that you should use every power once.
This I can definitely agree with. It'd be nice to be able to do force push all the time like Gideon uses Lift in Advent Rising.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
